IMAG Camera Help/Suggestions

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IMAG Camera Help/Suggestions

PCPRO

We are getting into providing AVL for large events requiring IMAG. We have been using Blackmagic switchers and Panasonic GH5s for cameras doing streaming. However we know we need to get over to SDI and limit the amount of conversion and latency we have in the signal path. We are going into Barco 20k projectors and I’m looking for a new camera that can be used in low light settings concerts and the like. I think maybe we should be looking at a camera with a built in ENG type lens?? We would like to be able to do a bust shot from 85-100ft back from the downstage lip. Can you recommend some cameras? And what is an acceptable amount of latency in the signal path for IMAG? I've been reading up to 100ms??
Thanks for the help.

joelwsmith

PCPRO

Thanks for reaching out and welcome to the community!

100ms is a great target for IMAG, but that is rarely accomplished unless you have a very well designed (and usually expensive) system. I would say an acceptable amount of latency is 200ms or less in most situations. That would be 6 frames at 30 fps. I've found the average person doesn't notice or care until latency hits 300ms or more.

Ultimately, if you want the lowest possible latency for IMAG then you go with a studio camera designed specifically for broadcast. Nearly all cameras under $10,000 will have considerable latency on the outputs, even if they offer SDI output.

Budget and distance are going to be your biggest determining factors.

Distance:

A bust shot (shoulders up) is going to take A TON of focal length to achieve from 85-100 feet away. That's roughly 2X the optical zoom that's need to get a medium shot (waist up). So if you have a 20X optical zoom that can get a waist up from that distance, then you would need a full 2X extender or 40X optical zoom just to get the bust shot from that same distance. This is going to be super difficult with most camcorders unless you find 4K camcorders that have a sensor crop feature while in HD mode - often called Clear Image Zoom (Sony) or Advanced Zoom (Panasonic and Canon).

If you go with legit studio broadcast camera bodies, then your lens options get much easier. However, they also get much more expensive. As an example - a 40X, 42X, or 55X (ENG or box) lens is basically what a corporate show or television broadcast would spec for a situation like yours. And those lenses alone will start around $50,000 and go up from there quickly.

Here are some focal lengths you will want to look for when searching for camcorders or lenses that can achieve a bust shot from 85' or more:

175mm minimum needed on any 1/3" camera sensor
225mm minimum needed on any 1/2" camera sensor
350mm minimum needed on any 2/3" camera sensor
450mm minimum needed on any 1" camera sensor
700mm minimum needed on any Micro Four Thirds camera sensor

Budget:

What budget are you trying to work within?

PCPRO

joelwsmith Thank you for taking the time and sharing your knowledge with the community. A waist shot would probably be sufficient in most cases for me. I have GH5s and Sony A7 cameras with a decent variety of lenses and for this first event that might work. We will be in a rodeo arena for this first large event and If I can use the A7 with the ATEM Mini Extreme Iso and some BMD micro converters ((That I already own) to convert the output and run SDI into my projectors and you think that will suffice from a latency standpoint? We might just do that. I would imagine it would be under 100ms and since most of the folks in the front of the arena will be watching the performer and not the IMAG and sound travels roughly a foot per millisecond I would think that the IMAG would be pretty close to lining up with the Audio from the PA for the folks at the FOH position and back. I want to find the right product for me than we can do some purchasing but I don’t want to be forced into the wrong product because of a deadline. In this instance we would have 3 cameras so we wouldn’t be doing much panning or zooming while the camera was hot. We would setup on the other camera then cut. My total budget would be 12-15k for 2 cameras. I’m probably just looking at something with a built in lens at that price I would assumeI know it’s not a huge amount but would still appreciate suggestions.

Thanks

PCPRO

PCPRO We would do 60fps unless you see a reason not too.

joelwsmith

PCPRO

I know for sure that the GH5S has considerable latency on the HDMI output. I used to own them and use them for multi-cam productions quite a bit. While I never measured it exactly, I'm pretty sure the latency was upwards of 300ms.

I'm not sure on the Sony a7's output latency, but I would imagine it's also pretty high. Those mirrorless cameras are not really made for low latency output and have to deal with a lot of processing before the video is output through HDMI.

Definitely worth a shot, though. You may find the latency to be acceptable in your circumstances.

If you're looking for cameras in the sub-$7000 range then I recommend checking out these 2 camcorders:

Canon XF405 (affiliate link)
Panasonic CX350 (affiliate link)

They are just about the most capable camcorders you'll find when it comes to live production features.

PCPRO

joelwsmith I ordered two of the Panasonic AG-CX350 based on your recommendation and extensive reading and YouTube watching. I'm hoping these will work well for us. Looking for controls and tripods. I read your video tripod recommendations and was looking at the manfrotto 055 and 055B.
Did you do the 3 or 4 stage leg? And what fluid head would you recommend?
For controls I was looking at the VZ Rock

Thoughts?
Thanks for your help!

joelwsmith

PCPRO

Great!

First thing you should do is choose your fluid head. That will determine what type of mount you need on the tripod or if you will need an adapter. For the CX350 I would recommend a minimum of the Manfrotto Nitrotech 608, and ideally the new Sachtler aktiv6.

Once you have the head selected, then you can match a tripod to it to fit your needed height and budget.

The VariZoom VZROCK is excellent and is compatible with the CX350.